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What Can We Learn from the Michael Gungor Controversy?
A story broke last week about Michael Gungor (who writes a lot of the worship choruses that we sing) that sent shock waves through the Church.
Michael stated in a recent blog post that he no longer believed in the Biblical accounts of Adam and Noah.
Here is a quote from Michael’s blog:
“I have no more ability to believe, for example, that the first people on earth were a couple named Adam and Eve that lived 6,000 years ago. I have no ability to believe that there was a flood that covered all the highest mountains of the world only 4,000 years ago and that all of the animal species that exist today are here because they were carried on an ark and then somehow walked or flew all around the world from a mountain in the middle east after the water dried up. I have no more ability to believe these things than I do to believe in Santa Clause or to not believe in gravity.”
In a later blog Michael goes into more detail of his beliefs concerning Genesis:
“Genesis reports that two of every kind of animal were in a single boat floating around while God sends rain to drown everyone and everything else… There are millions of species of life on this planet. Even if God miraculously fed all of these species and kept them from killing each other on the boat, how big would that boat have to be? And what sort of ecological systems would have to be in place for all the species to survive? Genesis puts the ark at 300 cubits long, 50 wide, 30 high. (A cubit is approximately 45 cm) If you do the math, there is really just NO way to fit two of every kind of animal species on an ark of the dimensions that the Bible purports.”
I don’t like Michael’s general sarcasm in his blog post, but I do think it’s a fair question. To be honest, I’ve had the same question myself.
Whenever I have a disagreement with someone, I try to seek to understand where he or she is coming from. I do not have to agree with someone to understand them.
So, What can we learn from Michael?
While I disagree with much of Michael’s blog, I do agree with him on this following point that he made:
“If you try to find some value in them as stories, there will be some people that say that you aren’t a Christian anymore because you don’t believe the Bible is true or authoritative.”
The Apostle Paul said it like this, “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.“
You do not have to believe the book of Genesis to be a Christian.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”
I know this to be true because I did not believe the Biblical account of creation when I became a Christian.
We all know that Michael’s thoughts are not anything new.
My stepmom and my church taught me that Jesus was the Son of God, but the book of Genesis was a collection of stories similar to Greek Mythology.
My Science teachers taught me that God did not create us, but that we evolved from the animal kingdom.
I was into science when I was in high school. My senior year I took two science courses, Physics and Biology 2 and I was planning to major in Marine Biology in College.
My Dad gave his life to Christ when I was a senior in high school and I would see him reading the Bible frequently so I opened it up to see what all the fuss was about.
I picked up a Bible and tried to read it. I turned to the first page and read “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” My thought was ‘that didn’t really happen” and I closed the Bible.
I didn’t read the Bible for months but went to church with my Dad from time to time.
Someone suggested that I start reading in the New Testament with the Gospel of John, so I gave the Bible a second chance.
After reading the New Testament for several months I made a decision to give my life to Christ, but I still struggled with the book of Genesis.
I would cringe every time a preacher talked about Adam.
On the other hand it really challenged my intellect was when Jesus would refer to God creating man and quote the book of Genesis.
“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female. ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’”
Mark 10:6-8
It sure seems like Jesus believed the Genesis account of creation.
Additionally, Luke seemed to believe that Adam and Noah were real people when it lists them in the Genealogy of Jesus in Luke chapter 3. So, do we just believe that the writers of the Gospels made up the genealogies?
I had to learn to think for myself. Eventually I rejected my stepmom’s statement that, “Jesus was the Son of God, but the book of Genesis was just a myth”. If Jesus really is the Son of God wouldn’t he know that the book of Genesis was just a bunch of myths?
The more I thought about what I was taught in school the more illogical it became. I came to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is not science.
It is simply a big guess as there is no evidence that one species had ever evolved into another species.
Evolution is not even good logic. Think about how complex the world is. It’s foolish to think that the world is just a big accident. There has never been anything created without a creator.
The apostle Paul said it like this.
“For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”
Romans 1:20
The bottom line for me is that none of us witnessed the creation of the world, except for Jesus. Jesus was there in the beginning and He participated in creation.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”
John 1:1-3
Do I still have questions about creation? Absolutely, but I trust God to answer them. After all, science is simply man discovering what God created.
What can we learn from Michael Gundor?
It seems to me that Michael feels like he was told what to believe as a child. This method of discipleship doesn’t work. We can’t just tell our kids what to believe.
We need to give people and especially our children the freedom to ask questions and do their own thinking.
As teachers and parents we tend to spit out information and then ask kids to remember what we taught, but we can’t teach faith that way.
Children can learn to give right answers, but right answers without understanding is not good enough.
I asked a young man who grew up in my kids church and then left church for many years the following question, “How do we as parents help our kids embrace truth without projecting it on to them?”
This was his response; “The biggest reason why most kids don’t embrace a belief when they grow up is they had no hand or opinion in forming that belief. If they didn’t come to a conclusion on their own, they’ll dismiss it later in life.”
We need to teach the book of Genesis to our children and at the same time be careful not to tell them what to believe. Give your kids the freedom to ask questions and think through what they believe.
Either the whole book is true or none of it is. If God lied about Genesis then can we accept the rest is true? No it’s all or none
Pastor Cliff,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Mark & I believe the entire Bible is true.
If you look through Mark’s entire blog post he talks about his journey of becoming a Christian in high school and discovering the entire Bible to be true.
He was candid about having questions but completely trusting in God to answer them.
For me, the important thing to remember is this: what the Bible says is true, is true.
Thanks for sharing your journey of belief! It is a walk of faith and we learn as we grow in Christ.
Interesting… Love your thoughts Mark. We have to engage people in thier journey to truth. We also have to be willing to be engaged in our own journey to truth. I certainly do NOT have it all figured out. I am glad that God does.
Mark, this is a very thoughtful article on a sensitive topic. Thank you for addressing it. I especially appreciate how you shared your journey. I think it could be just as significant for us, as Ministers, to share our doubts with kids, as well as our faith. The quote about kids having to come to the conclusions on their own is a game-changer.
Thanks Laura. I like John Maxwell’s statement “Success is a journey not a destination” The same thing is true about faith. Faith is a journey, not a destination.
Great post! Good content, and I also appreciate how you both approach and respond to controversial things – with love and respect, and an openness to pull out things we can think about. As Christians, it is okay to disagree about things, but not okay to blow up at people and be a terrible representative of Jesus 🙂 Keep up the great ministry Mark and Lance!
On a side note: we just started the Leadership series at our campues. Very powerful SuperChurch series!!
-John
Thanks John. I appreciate your comments. Let me know how the Leadership Series goes.
As a children’s pastor, I think about constantly what we do in children’s church… I believe that I can teach them the Word and encourage them to embrace that belief. However, I also believe the glue that will stick is the intimate relationship our kids can develop when they are young with God. The times of worship where we worship together, young and old; the times at the altar when they respond to God; when they learn to take it home and apply it to their lives. I’ve seen that also. All of us will not be biologists, etc. I do not believe that a person that studies the Bible’s creation story is a simpleton. I have studied some of the sciences and they also point to creation. Evolution still has the missing link. Could God have put even more of “creation” in the Bible? YES… Maybe we need to take Him at His Word. The percentage of people that do not believe in absolute truth is staggering. This is my concern. Are we losing a generation because we have trouble with God being able to say “Let there by light and there was light”. I don’t have a problem with telling a kid that Ms. Kelli doesn’t know everything, but I believe a God who does and is. The same Holy Spirit that moved upon men of the day to establish the Canon of the scriptures is the same Holy Spirit that is on the earth today. He is our teacher. I love praying over myself and others the epistle prayers… i.e. in Ephesians 1… praying for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God and that the eyes of my understanding will be enlightened to know the hope of His calling in Christ Jesus. He is our source. My prayers are with this brother.
I agree Kelly. The key is allowing our kids to have a true experience with the Holy Spirit. but it needs to be one that they call their own.
I guess it’s fair to say that where we cannot entertain macro evolution but micro evolution absolutely …. as it is ‘ species after it’s own kind ‘ which would mean all creatures fit very nicely into the ark. If Jesus is The Word then He And His Word are one and ALL true ! Or NONE! can’t be in between can’t cherry pick…. it is alive and living … Jesus.
It seems to be yet another example of the world invading the church rather than the church transforming the world. God hasn’t changed, but the world sure has! If you can’t trust ALL the Bible, you can’t trust any of it.
The songs that Gungor did on “You Make All Things Beautiful” seem solid, and to have a Biblical foundation. Read through the book of Isaiah. I haven’t followed the band recently. Mark’s description of coming to salvation, and deliverance from darkness is not an uncommon account. Growing up in church and serving in music ministry, I always had a hunger to know God and His Word, to understand more of what He wanted to say, and how He wanted me to know His love and forgiveness and to love Him in return, to look up and see the light of His countenance! He could have made it so clear at the very beginning, to not even allow me to wrestle with Him & His Word. But He left enough questions, that somewhere along the way, I would have to fall on Him with my doubts and questions, and discover that even with all that, He is still faithful, as His Word is faithful!
What I struggled with too was my own sinful nature, for so long, I wasn’t free! As when Peter got out of the boat and told Jesus to go away from him, because he himself was a sinful man. The more the Holy Spirit opens up the Word of God to us; it is living and requires the work of the Holy Spirit to bring revelation and light on things that are hard to understand. All our lives we are in a fight for our faith! To believe and trust God when, and in spite of, all around us being darkness and the world crumbling, will we turn and trust God? But it is not stupid or simple to believe the Bible or what God speaks to us, confirmed in His Word.
C.S. Lewis rightly said in Mere Christianity, p 75 “If you are thinking of becoming a Christian, I warn you, you are embarking on something which is going to take the whole of you, brains and all. But, fortunately, it works the other way round. Anyone who is honestly trying to be a Christian will soon find his intelligence being sharpened: one of the reasons why it needs no special education to be a Christian is that Christianity is an education itself. That is why an uneducated believer like Bunyan was able to write a book that has astonished the whole world.” Pilgrims Progress For more interesting reading on those who were in wonder of God revealed in His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, read the writings of Napoleon Bonaparte while in exile the last of his life!
In Christ Jesus our Lord! The Alpha and Omega!
Dixie
I have heard so many scientists and theologians debate the flood, and all I know is this, I believe the Bible is Gods word; inerrant! which means if I believe in God, I believe all of the bible is true and accurate. it defies me that other Christians don’t believe that the Bible is perfect as it is written; that the stories in it are all true! It does boggle my mind that those millions of species were on the arc, but if God said it was true, it was! That’s all there is to it! 🙂 Faith is an amazing thing; I thank you Lord for giving me that faith.